OBLIGATORY I VOTED POST

[bobemm]

OK!

1. Somebody put Stabenow and Granholm signs in my yard without asking (I live on a busy road kitty-corner from the polling place, so such things are to be expected). Which in principle really pisses me off, but in practice I'm not removing them.
2. The tally on the tabulator was 442, which is sort of disappointing for this precinct, but I guess we've still got a few hours.
3. And, I got in right before the line started forming, maybe lots of people will vote after work.
4. Nobody harassed me, as expected. This is a super-progressive area, the election workers actually want people to vote, even if their skin is a bit dark!
5. What are we coming to if that's remarkable?
6. All dems, except for County Commission - I wrote in qmrf, because Peterson is a right bastard and I have no idea how he won the primary BY NINE VOTES and man does that guy really piss me off.
7. Every time I pass over a Green for a Dem, it makes me sad, but I just don't think it's practical this year.

If you aren't sure that you're going to vote today, let me make a suggestion - DO IT GOD DAMMIT. Even if you're a Republican. Eew, sigh.

Comments

[chucknoblet.livejournal.com]

Eh, I could disagree.

In any case, it's no less a symptom of a systematic attempt at suppression, which is no less sad.

[doombeast.livejournal.com]

What if I dont feel harassed/suppressed? I ask because I'm not particularly experienced at playing the victim.

[chucknoblet.livejournal.com]

Sigh. I wish I had the energy to teach you some elementary sociology. But I don't, so suffice it to say, you are not who I'm worried about.

[doombeast.livejournal.com]

I dont need to be taught elementary sociology to know that rich white men are the source of all non-rich white men's problems. Because I already hear that plenty from people who perfer to live their lives blaming others for their every failing or hardship rather than assume some degree of accountability for their own life.

[chucknoblet.livejournal.com]

By being a white male, you have an advantage the moment you are born (do you dispute that?), and you can't take credit for it. Due to the fact that you can't take credit for it, "accountability" has nothing to do with it.

[doombeast.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I do dispute this advantage. Nothing in my life has ever been free simply because of the color of my skin. Public schools, middle class family, student loans at a state university. Not seeing this "white advantage." You're certainly welcome to tell me otherwise, because lord knows Ive never had to work for anything because Im white. And accountability has everything to do "with it." People can spend their whole lives crying about the deck being stacked against them if they want. Or they can stop fooling themselves into believing that they cant better themselves because they're not white. No skin off my white ass.

[doombeast.livejournal.com]

Oh wait, according to the census, I make some ~2000$ more annually than the poverty line. That must be clear evidence of the "white male advantage" Im been cruising on for a quarter-century.

[chucknoblet.livejournal.com]

if you were black, you'd be making even less.

[doombeast.livejournal.com]

Really? So all black Americans make less than I do? That's really amazing, because I'm pretty sure I know non-caucasians who make more than I do. In fact, I live with one. But he's Chinese, so I guess that's not black. And Chinese is basically white when compared to black, AM I RITE?

[chucknoblet.livejournal.com]

Once again, you're arguing with a statement that I didn't make.

I'm saying that a black person in the same position as you would make less. So would a woman. This is a fact.

[doombeast.livejournal.com]

"if you were black, you'd be making even less.

You didnt say this?

[chucknoblet.livejournal.com]

Yes. In your position, if you were black, your salarey would be less. This is a fact.

[doombeast.livejournal.com]

Curiously enough, there are black people where I work. Poor black college students like me. And strangely, we get paid the same hourly wage. It's true- the girls too! And there's more females than males. And probably more Asians than Blacks.

[chucknoblet.livejournal.com]

Well, I know that you're wrong, but as I said I don't have the energy to educate you.

When did you get your first car? Who paid for it? Who paid for the insurance, and the gas?

[doombeast.livejournal.com]

My first car was a 1988 hand-me-down VW Jetta. I paid for the insurance and gas because, amazingly, if I didnt want to ride the bus to school or bike to work every day, I was going to have to pay for insurance and gasoline.

Again, that's that WHITE ADVANTAGE in action.

[chucknoblet.livejournal.com]

But it was still given to you, right?

You're white and you've experienced advantage. Convince me that the two are unrelated.

From what you've said, your sister has been given a huge amount of coddling. I have no reason to believe that you haven't had access to the same. And more white kids have that access than black kids. That is just a fact.

[doombeast.livejournal.com]

Inasmuch as I wasnt making car payments between the ages of 8 and 16, yes, I guess it was "given" to me. Lord knows NO NON-WHITES have every been in such a "privileged" situation before. Only us white people get to cut our teeth on the steering wheel of our parents' clunkers.

What coddling is this? You dont know my sister, so I'm pretty sure you're in no position to be speaking of this thundering WHITE ADVANTAGE she enjoys. But hey, nice use of statistics. I guess because "more" white kids have "access" than black kids, I guess that means it's absolutely true of me.

Hay, did you read about how I went to an in-state university? More evidence of WHITE PRIVILEGE because if there's one thing you dont see at public colleges, it's non-whites.

[chucknoblet.livejournal.com]

hahah betch, neither of us is using statistics. If I could be bothered to gather some, that would end the discussion.

The only thing happening here - you were trying to show how you didn't benefit from your whiteness, and I was saying that you're wrong.

[doombeast.livejournal.com]

For reasons that cant be explained, while in the line at the polling station, the election judges asked both the White Devils and the oppressed minorities (the latinos in this case) for their ID. So no, there was no "white benefit" going on [while I was there].

[chucknoblet.livejournal.com]

In that particular instance, I'm sure that you didn't benefit from your whiteness. But that is not what I'm talking about. The whole "picture ID required to vote" thing is symptomatic of a larger problem, even if it doesn't apply to you.

Do you understand that there might be problems in the world that don't apply to you, but are still problems? Or does it only matter if you suffer from it?

[qmrf.livejournal.com]

I think you're both seeing a little bit of the ecological fallacy. Simply: a trend that exists across *groups* cannot be used to make statements about *individuals*.

Example of the ecological fallacy: "You're students, right? The Precinct 3-1 table is over there." First, just because most residents of the 3-1 are students, and we live in the 3-1, doesn't mean we're students. Second, just because most students in the third ward live in the 3-1 doesn't mean that any given student lives in the 3-1.

Similarly, just because white privilege does in fact exist doesn't mean that any given white person is measurably advantaged in a certain set of ways over any given black person. The statistical effects of white privilege are not applicable on person-to-person pairwise matchups; therefore any statement either you or doombeast make that regards him personally, regarding income or the like, isn't necessarily true.

On the other hand, I was recently pointed to this article on more intangible but real ways in which white privilege is experienced by individuals. e.g. "I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection."

[chucknoblet.livejournal.com]

I totally see what you're saying about the general effects being more relevant. But you're saying that you can't look at any given white guy, and say "if you were black your quality of life would most likely be somewhat worse"?

[chucknoblet.livejournal.com]

And if so, answer me this: why do I hate white people so much?

[qmrf.livejournal.com]

I think the more intangible benefits in the article I linked to are definitely true for individuals - if a given white guy like me were black, I'd suddenly lose a lot, just in day-to-day life interactions. There have been a few journalists and researchers who gone "undercover" and passed as another race (or gender) to experience these effects. (Sorry, no links offhand, but I could probably get Cara to find me some.)

The things where you can't address individuals are more "solid" things like earnings - "You would make x amount less at your current job." Yes, it's likely that I would have a lower income were I not white, but it's not definite that I as an individual would personally have a lower income, and it's not necessary that the lower income be at the exact same job with the exact same background. The overall effect is partially due to people with the same job and background being paid less, partially due to people not being able to get the same job, and partially due to people not having the same background (access to education, etc). There's probably been research done controlling for some of that, and it is definitely the case that fighting racism in housing and employment is an on-going and active thing, but I'm not comfortable saying so without actually pulling out research.

Now, Cara's more expert on the research here than I; her work was more in how people form and express stereotypes and bias than in the systemic economic effects of stereotypes, but she's more familiar with the field in general.

[chucknoblet.livejournal.com]

Ok, this makes sense.

But I still hate white people.